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Copy protection
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7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM,
Old PRE-ALPHA topic
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44 months ago by
ActiveCancer
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In relation to the copy protection how will it work i understand that upon starting it will connect to the internet and say yes it is ok and whatnot anyway will you be able to start the game let the copy protection runand start the game then disconnect the modem or turn it off or will it constantly check the game even if you are playing singleplayer
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44 months ago by
MarekRosa
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Hi ActiveCancer,
you will need to be connected to internet (our server) during whole gameplay. Miner War's client on your computer will not only check if it's connected, but it will let server do some calculations and logic. And here is the real copy protection. Because if the client just checks "Am I connected to MW server", then it will be easy for crackers to disable this validation. But if we have some code that isn't on the client, no one can crack it. Only if he know exactly what that server-side code does.
I think this is the only real copy protection. Of course, we lost some players who don't have internet or who want to play in a forest, but according to some stats, that's only 1-2% of possible players.
Bye,
Marek
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44 months ago by
hearty0
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Check out this link:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.139753#3137572
I kinda hope that you can also put in some low blows(perhaps something like the game Lose/Lose(if there was a disclaimer somewhere then you should be fine) =-3) to any pirates as well as that server side computing. That and maybe send you their IP. =-P
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44 months ago by
hearty0
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P.S. In case you can't tell I was being a bit mischievous with the lose/lose recommendation.
But that doesn't mean I was kidding about DRM possessed by Loki. By that I mean if the game finds out it's pirated then it'll unleash a torrent of pseudo-random glitches, difficulty spikes, critical things(weapons,air supply,power,etc.) fail, not so random pwning anomolies, or even game crashing false errors. DRM that says "Can't connect to server, you can't play sorry." is annoying and easy to crack(due to the obvious points it does the check), while this would be insanely hard to crack(due to never knowing if that crash was caused by an error or the game, being ambushed by ordinary AI or by a massive(100+(sometimes) pack of uber AI's spawned only to torment, going to base with your entire fortune on the line only to be hit by a stroke of bad luck gas pockets or were they spawned on you giving you no warning, to be sniped by a hidden ship in the head or was that shot created by nothing?), they'd never get them all. You could even include some silly ones(the sun creates an UBER flare that is like a wave of death that can pass through asteroids, or maybe a black hole). Sure it may be pirated eventually, or maybe immediately only to see how clever you were. =-3
Do that and you'll have made the greatest, and funniest DRM EVER!
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44 months ago by
Ctrlaltelite
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lol hearty0 you have an idea there... but i know some people who will try pirate a game just to try it before buying it. If they think the game is utter shit keeps crashing and they die to easily etc then they wont buy it. Another flaw is what happens if said spawned UI came into contact with another player before the pirate would be a bit unfair.
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44 months ago by
ActiveCancer
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I have to agree with Ctrlaltelite many people i know including myself pirate games only because many game companies dont release demos or trials so if i like the game i will buy it if dont i will delete it of my pc. no point keeping a game you dont like. but if a demo is released go crazy bugging up the pirated copies.
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44 months ago by
hearty0
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Ctrl, I'm sure it'd be easy to tell the AI to only attack that one person(anyone who talks to them could get a message like "This bloke owes the Don money"(another kudos is up for grabs(but less for this one)) XD).
As for I trial I'd hope that would be the case too. Those ideas were just because we all know DRM is pure EVIL, but it doesn't have to be the annoying kind of evil. =-3
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44 months ago by
MarekRosa
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Hi. I know about this original DRM idea and I have been considering it in past. But there is the risk, that some pirates won't understand it's a joke and will write comments or even reviews on this modified version. And then game would get wrong reputation.
In fact, we don't have problems with pirates, because if pirate won't send correct login/password to server, server will not talk to him - so he can't play. That's all.
But if one day people start cheating the game, then we will throw some jokes :) I am counting on this.
Bye,
Marek
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32 months ago by
Southeast
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Using this kind of DRM will impact your sales Marek. Think very carefully if you really want to go down the same road as Ubisoft and companies like it.
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32 months ago by
Darghan
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Protection is same as Minecraft`s just get your account and you can play. You cannot even install the game without internet anyway. But hey thx for the comment!
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32 months ago by
MIK3K
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As long as I can play single player in case of internet connection failure on my end or your game gets very popular and your server crashes I am fine. The Ubisoft "always connected" DRM is pretty bad and I refuse to buy any of their games with that form of DRM.
Even Minecraft will let me play single player even if their server crashes - you just have to be connected to update or play multiplayer. Seems fair and will not allow pirates to update (as far as I know).
Minecraft sales numbers speak for themselves - Build a great game and people will crash your servers trying to buy copies :)
EDIT - Just wanted to add - I believe one of the front pages of this site mentions NO DRM. I did buy a copy already and have no problem with whatever the end DRM turns out - but I will weigh whether or not I buy additional copies for other family members on the final DRM - I do plan on buying at least 2 additional copies if we can play local lan without an "always on" solution.
ANOTHER EDIT - Here is the Piracy statement on the "ABOUT" tab -
The game will not utilize any sort of DRM protection, nor activation code. To play the game you only need to download and install the package and enter your login/password. As the game interacts with our servers during the game play, we periodically check for suspicious users. The game isn't locked to your computer, so you can play it from home or work :)
I believe in your right to protect your intellectual property - balanced with my desire to pay for and play the single player without too much trouble (gaming shouldn't be a chore).
I really, really like Minecraft's ability to play offline but only give updates to paying customers. Heck, when their server went down they basically gave away the game for free until the server got fixed - some of those people are still playing that same version - they just cannot update to newer versions. Sales still holding steady at over 10,000 copies a day (over 345,000 copies sold so far per their website stats and their sales were just over 100,000 about a month ago when I bought that game - so they blew up pretty big this past month).
I have extremely high hopes for your game. The pre-alpha is pretty amazing stuff. I hope (and think) your finished game could be as big as Minecraft, even though a different genre. Keep up the great work.
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32 months ago by
ToadMan667
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My understanding is that we cannot play without a stable connection to your server at all times. I'm afraid that you've lost my purchase because of this.
I nonetheless wish you luck with the project and will be keeping an eye on things to see if your policy changes. It seems like a great game!
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32 months ago by
Sardaukar
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I'm fairly certain you can play Minecraft offline; If you cannot connect to the server, the game offers "offline mode."
I really want to see this game succeed, but it's a niche title, an obscure one. The crowd you're appealing to is constituted largely of gamers who are extremely hostile towards this kind of DRM. Please don't shoot yourself in the foot here.
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32 months ago by
MarekRosa
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Ours "always connected" policy is not exactly a DRM. The main reason for it is that part of the game logic runs on the server. Think about it as a very hybrid form of web site: you can google without internet.
Although, XBOX version will most certainly be offline too.
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32 months ago by
tomeglove
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MarekRosa, it /is/ DRM - if it prevents you from playing the game in singleplayer when the servers go down or when net connection is lost, it's certainly managing your digital rights. Therefore, to claim your game is DRM-free is hugely misleading. I now regret pre-ordering after reading this.
You are going to turn away many more customers /with/ the DRM than those you'd have gained from would-be pirates buying the game.
If anything, games being as obscure and unproven as Miner Wars would make people wary of buying it without having played it first. Unless you release a large demo, allowing piracy might even /help/ to stop such concerns, because then people can try it before putting money down. Also, if those people that pirated it tell their friends about it and just one of those friends buys the game, you've still broken even.
Please, seriously consider removing the DRM. I, for one, will never be buying anything from Keen Software House again because of the deceptive "no DRM" claim.
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32 months ago by
getter777
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I would also say now is a great time, Alpha and all that, to refine the engine/process to at least ALLOW for the single player game to be played "offline" aside an initial update check or some such. If a server can handle some calculations and whatnot in a single player game, well, then surely a gaming PC fit for the system requirements ALSO has the necessary computational heft to do it whilst handling the outstanding majority of the game? Perhaps there would be a minor performance hit, but even then that's not so bad.
I'm even more niche than your "real" target audience here---I never even had access to or awareness of the Descent series until I saw it on GoG some months back: For me it was Radix: Beyond the Void that was my sole window into this gamestyle as a young lad.
You've got to think long term here, as far as single player games being playable in the far flung future as proper classics. How much worse would history be if all the Descent games had server-side critical game code for single player such that it would be lost and unplayable to this day? Would Miner Wars even exist as a tangential result?
I implore the dev team to weigh such considerations and do the "obvious" thing here. It would also look very good in terms of a "dev house listening to critical fan feedback" manner
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32 months ago by
Darghan
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I have given this explanation on another forum already so I thought I would share it here with you guys. Our stance on the so called DRM. Which is not a DRM by any means.
There is a good explanation for that. Were not a big studio and our title will become an MMO. Were already implementing the network code now to save time in the development process. We have also adopted this strategy because it will allow us to make a more quality and smooth multiplayer gameplay. Because this game IS about multiplayer period. If we would have the resources to make two seperate titles and work on the Network code after we would have done it believe me. Were not a bunch of morons thinking that this is a good way to attract customer base. We dont even think that its the best piracy protection out there. In all honesty games get copied and if we get succesful so will we. Even with having some of the logic on our servers.
I hope this clears some things up.
Thanks for all guys! Positive or negative feedback we do not care as long as it makes sense and gives us ideas how to further improve!
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31 months ago by
ToadMan667
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Ah, I was confused. I thought that this was a single/multi player installment that would be followed by an MMO version, similar to the plans originally made for Torchlight.
While I would still greatly appreciate the ability to play in single player and (non-massively) multiplayer without connecting to your servers, I've been unable to resist purchasing this game. I love the concept, and I love the open development (It reminds me of Mount & Blade).
Keep up the great work! I'll be playing around in the pre-alpha in the meantime!
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31 months ago by
Darghan
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Youre right and thanks for your support. Same here Ive been in Mount and Blade since 0.651. It will be released first as a single-mutliplayer game and later MMO. Weve just already implemented all of the network logic since we wanted to save time on the MMO part. Also it does not make much sense to develop the network code in parts. Its much more feasible to program the whole solution upfront. Thats why we chose to go this way. I am glad you understand.
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31 months ago by
MorOre
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I have never pirated in my life.Never intend too.
BUT I HATE BEING CONTROLLED AND SPIED ON THRU DRM AND CRAP.
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31 months ago by
Darghan
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We do not use DRM or any other copy protection system. We use a normal username and password system like in any other MMO (world of warcraft, EVE). People started deliberately using the word DRM.
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31 months ago by
Haay1971
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I understand that some people have concerns about copy protection schemes, especially where it intrudes with your freedom to play the game you legally bought.
But software piracy is a real concern and with a lot of games-developers having gone broke after disappointing sales caused by pirated copies spread far and wide, I can't blame Keen Software House or any other company to use measures to insure that only bought copies of the game work as designed.
Take for example Blizzard. They have already stated that their upcoming game Diablo 3 will require an active connection to their Battle.Net gameserver in order to play it, even if you play it in single player mode. The same is true for StarCraft 2 by the way.
One suggestion made here earlier, which was to put nasty code in the game which only activates when the game detects that the game is cracked, is a BAD idea! This is what Iron Lore Software did in their action-RPG game Titan Quest. In the game they put code that in case of a cracked executable the game would cause a crash to desktop when exiting the very first dungeon in the game. While this was unknown to crackers, it only caused the game to get the bad reputation that it was buggy software. The bad reputation hurt sales immensely and THQ stopped funding Iron Lore, causing them to go bust.
I think Keen Software has a very valid point to require an active connection to the game server. It is the same way like Guild Wars for example. In that game you can play solo and play completely alone. But you still play ON the server! Miner Wars is not a single player game. It is an MMO game by design, which also gives an additional singler-player scripted campaign to play through.
So, if someone really can't deal with keeping an active Internet connection open to the Miner Wars server while playing the single player campaign of Miner Wars, I say to them: too bad and your loss!
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31 months ago by
agp1183
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If you have to be connected to the internet to play single player, why even bother including it?
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31 months ago by
Haay1971
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QUOTE: If you have to be connected to the internet to play single player, why even bother including it?
Because of a nice and engaging story line with scripted events. :)
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31 months ago by
darkova
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i dont mind this considering the mainly mmo style gameplay but will you also be implementing an emergency autosave feature for the single player or sandbox modes should connection cut off?
i believe this was a problem with assasins creed
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31 months ago by
CityBuilder
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Hi,
I just want to make certain that I have this correct....
If I go to play MW2081 and your servers are down, will it be like 'MineCraft' where it will let me play offline? Or will it simply deny me access to play the game until your servers come back up?
The reason that I ask is because you make it sound like you are using the same DRM as MineCraft, however with Minecraft I only need to login one time and from then on out I can play in 'offline' mode. But you also mention that some of the calculations must be done on the server, in which case that would mean that I have no way to play it in 'offline' mode if your servers are down, and makes it seem more like the DRM that UBIsoft uses rather than the DRM that MineCraft is using.
Thanks,
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30 months ago by
SaintWacko
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QUOTE: i dont mind this considering the mainly mmo style gameplay but will you also be implementing an emergency autosave feature for the single player or sandbox modes should connection cut off?
This is a big question for me as well. I have Command and Conquer 4, and when the internet connection is lost, the game doesn't just not let you play, but crashes, losing any progress I have made since the last save. I will be very unlikely to buy this game if an autosave on connection loss is not implemented.
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30 months ago by
wolis
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Sadly UbiSoft have lost sales from me and others (at least 3 titles I would happily have bought) if they had not used their always-on DRM.
I would hate to see such a promising game like Miner Wars also loose sales, and reputation by demanding an always-on internet connection for single-player mode.
I registered with the forums simply to add another 'Please dont follow UbiSoft and their punishing DRM' vote.
Its like saying I can buy a car so long as I always have the radio on and tuned into a specific station. If the radio station stops transmitting then my car stops.
Please re-consider.
Thanks
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30 months ago by
ultradm
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I'm interested to find out more about this too. Now that we know the MMO and 2081 are different, will we still need a permanent Internet connection for 2081?
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30 months ago by
eyeball226
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I'm on the fence about buying this but I find the claim of not having DRM very misleading (constant connection to your server is DRM).
Also, the claim that it's the same as Minecraft is also misleading. Minecraft requires logging in only for updates and multiplayer and never requires constant connection to the game servers (multiplayer only requires connection to the private server hosting that world, not activation servers).
Now we know the MMO is a separate game, the MMO excuse is not good enough to justify the constant connection requirement. Will I be able to play 2081 without a constant internet connection? In the UK the lines can be quite bad and mine spontaneously stops working sometimes.
EDIT: @devs, your silence is losing you a sale.
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29 months ago by
InfectedAI
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I just bought this, wasn't aware that you had to be online even for single player, huge disappointment. I don't care if you don't call it DRM, it's still DRM. This is nothing like Minecraft's setup. Minecraft allows people to play offline. This is the same as Ubisfot's DRM setup. And as for the Diablo 3/StarCraft comparison, that is why I am not buying either of them. If the Xbox version can have offline play I see no reason why the PC version can't. As for this making it not possible for the game to be pirated, not true at all. Other companies have already tried this and failed. I hope you reconsider allowing single player to be played offline. As I mentioned before if you're implementing it in the console version you can do it in this one. Until then, I can't recommend this game to anyone.
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29 months ago by
mrcalhou
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I honestly think that it would be better to just cut your losses on people that pirate for the single-player game. Yes, I know that a lot of work is going into this game, but if people want to play online with their friends or against other people, then they'd need that internet connection anyway. And, the MMO version is going to be a seperate product.
My biggest gripe with this is that I find myself in situations where I am without internet and I would still want to play the game. Then, as other mentions, if I lose internet connection or the servers go down, then I'm screwed.
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29 months ago by
DeadMan
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Another vote for not needing an always-on connection for single player. Many of us have either spotty internet connections, or have to travel to places that don't have a way to get on the internet.
In all honesty, I believe that requiring an always-on connection for single player is going to lose you a lot of sales, as it's done for Ubisoft. The thing is that Ubisoft can afford that as people are still going to buy their AAA titles. Miner Wars doesn't really have that luxury at this point in time.
I understand that at the moment you do some logic resolving on the server side for single player. I'd rather take the hit on performance on my machine than to have to have a constant internet connection. What if my internet connection goes down? What happens if my network card stops working? What if your servers go down? I understand that playing the MMO isn't possible under these circumstances, but I should still be able to get to the single player in any case.
In short, please, please reconsider having an always-on connection necessary for single player.
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29 months ago by
eyeball226
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Post in this topic guys:
http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=1441
After all, what we're requesting is a feature, sort of. And I hope the devs realise that for every 1 person who complains about the DRM, loads more just don't buy it and don't bother to complain.
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29 months ago by
mrcalhou
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I'm personally content to have this subject discussed in multiple threads. It brings more attention to just how much players and consumers hate it.
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29 months ago by
eyeball226
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I wasn't trying to divert attention from this thread, more just bring the other one to attention for the reasons you just said. ;)
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29 months ago by
Ceacelion
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Here's a possible solution for those complaining about DRM and connectivity to the internet:
Require the game to connect to the internet on start-up. Once a successful connection is established and the server-side program confirms the client-side is a true copy (shouldn't take more then a second, perhaps with part of the load time being "Validating"), then allow a player to select an "Off-Line" mode, to where they can then access the game off-line and not worry about any sort of spotty connections.
To be honest, I'm not against this form of DRM, considering that the bread and butter of this game for this company is going to end up being the MMO-based systems they are working towards primairly. SC2 did Online DRM, as did C&C4 and several other games (Steam does allow an off-line mode, but your US and PW need to still be used to try and access the game servers first). We live in the age of mostly broadband internet, and if this company wants to go towards an MMO platform, then a persistant internet connection is mandatory for players.
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29 months ago by
mrcalhou
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That's not that great of an option. I'm a laptop gamer and I find myself with my laptop, wanting to play games because I'm bored, at places that do not have an internet connection. If I'm playing a single player game, then I should not need to be connected to a server to do so. If the devs want to allow single-player gamers the option of connecting to their servers in order to reduce the load on the gamer's hardware, then fine, but they should not require it. Ubisoft required PC gamers to be constantly connected to a server with Assassin's Creed II, and I did not buy the PC version because of it. Instead, I bought a used 360 copy because then Ubisoft wouldn't see a dime from my purchase.
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29 months ago by
Madfish
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Well, I kinda agree with the anti-DRM movement. Personally I hate DRM. I think piracy is nothing but an excuse. There are tons of, especially smaller, developers that showed why it's a big lie. In fact piracy sometimes aids games. You always have to ask yourself if the pirate would have had the money in the first place and if he would have put down the money for this game. But still, he might tell his friends about the game which then buy it etc. viral effect you get the logic.
On the other hand side there are new indie / smaller games that have the exact same type of DRM (altitude for example) and they're DEAD. No one plays them. Although they are award winning and have outstandingly cool gameplay no one bothers with them - did DRM save anyone? Certainly not the players who end up sitting in front of empty servers. ;)
There is extremely detailed research out there but I won't bother with it now.
If you're really interested go read articles from REAL developers and not marketing idiots. For example here:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
But there are many articles out there. They're easy to find if you're willing to actually open your eyes and not let yourself be influenced by revenue loving people with 200k+ cars and houses bigger than a football field.
The thing that's really the biggest issue is this: a few days ago I got my SNES and played a round of Donkey Kong Country. Guess what - it works PERFECTLY. After 18 years...
Now, things are different with online DRM and cloud. 18 years? Who knows if the company will still exist? Who knows if networking will still work the same way (IPX anyone?). If I had to guess I'd say no and no. Even giant companies like Blizzard at some point dropped support for legacy titles. And they make MILLIONS of profit. Go figure...
Using that kind of an online DRM you're basically saying: "this game won't have any long term value and if we go down the drain your games does also".
Also, online based savegames cannot be fixed with a patch since that patch not only has to remove the DRM but also introduce a true local save game feature. Even Ubisoft games have local save games! They can remove the DRM. Minerwars can't. Not without a huge effort - which is unreasonable in case anything happens to the company.
This said I think it'd be nice to have a single player feature that allows just playing the game without saving anything online. Of course sharing sectors won't work (it would but they won't implement it).
So yeah, BOTH sides are understandable.
Of course the developers have THE easiest way of avoiding piracy. Without local save games there is NO way a simple crack would ever work. Even with a simulated server you cannot save anything because the game simply doesn't have save game functionality. Of course even that could be cracked but I doubt it will, the game's just way too niche.
But from the user end it really is the worst thing you can ever experience.
I've heard many arguments about that you don't need to worry about savegames and stuff but seriously... that's a lie ;)
Why's that? Because many players, experiencing these DRM's (ubisoft etc) have experienced broken savegames, lost savegames, rolled back savegames etc. already. And if you really cared about the players keeping their savegames you could make a button that syncs the local savegame/secotr with an online server. Or you could just make a button to actually backup your savegames easily. Many games back in the days actually asked you if you want to keep your savegames and for many games I still have them. And for the players that use multiple machines you can, if you really want, provide a sync feature.
But then again. I doubt that the developers will change their minds. In fact it's already set in stone. This is because of mentality. Game companies all have a different mentality when producing games. This is from day one and can't / won't change that easily. Keen software house is saying they're giving stuff away for example - that's their mentality. On the other hand side that DRM scheme is their mentality.
You can only make a decision for yourselves. In the case of the current 9,99$ I was willing to put that money down for the value. But I'd NEVER EVER buy a game for more then 10$ / 7€ if it had that kind of copy protection. But of course that's different for everyone. :P
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29 months ago by
madmaty
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[Quote]
But if we have some code that isn't on the client, no one can crack it. Only if he know exactly what that server-side code does.
[end quote]
You honestly don't want to say that. Crackers base their whole lifes on doing what people say cant be done. Look at the ubisoft always online DRM it was cracked very quickly. Also mine craft is pirated to heck you can get the newest builds cracked the second they are released. The simple fact of the matter is no matter how much time / energy you put into your DRM someone will come along and crack it, its the nature of the world we live in. Even the mmo version will have pirates working on emulators as soon as its released. it doesn't matter what calculations or code you leave server side they will sniff out the packets and reverse engineer it.
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29 months ago by
Hugehead
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I just have three questions, first, will the game save if my or your servers go down for a few minutes? I often forget to save for hours at a time and if the game crashes it's frustrating, but most of those will be fixed, I can't control my servers which are spotty at best and would hate to have it close every few minutes.
Second, if your company goes out of business, will you release a completely DRM version, because no matter what you call it, being online to play single player is DRM, and I doubt you will keep the servers up if you go out.
Third, since some of the code that is needed to play is stored server side, will I have some amount of lag while playing single player? I have a pretty good computer, and have previously mentioned my internet is bad, so having a ping of 300 milliseconds would be crippling in a game like this.
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29 months ago by
mrcalhou
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If they go, or are going to go, out of buisness why would they bother to use resources to make the game playable? They'd have no obligations to do so.
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29 months ago by
Barnox
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Because it's the decent thing to do?
Reading up replies from those who are involved in the development of the game, I can honestly say it is shocking to see the kinds of responses towards those dissatisfied with the game.
The main issue people bring up is about the DRM. Yes, we know you don't like to call it DRM, but it is. You are deciding when and how we can play the game we have purchased. The initial game has a fully single player mode - Connecting to your server adds no functionality to the single player game, and instead dissuades and angers gamers who are being treated like criminals. This action is not at all to enhance the gameplay experience, it serves only to stop pirates from being able to play your game.
And pirates are by no means any kind of majority in PC gaming.
You say that, when the company shuts down, a possible course of action is that the DRM will be removed. But why not simply remove it now, before your company gathers more of a negative reputation?
The impact of the "lost" sales, that likely never existed, will be marginal at best, and it would be a chance to redeem yourselves.
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28 months ago by
Drakon
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Again this is a fully ONLINE game, databases and part of the Logic of Miner Wars is setup on the server and your single player character is linked to the up coming MMO and other site features such as resources and money. The game is very tied in to the server software and is impossible at this point in time to remove it.
If the company ever did go out of business (Highly unlikely) Marek has stated that he would release the source code for the Miner Wars servers so community's would be able to host and maintain there own servers. The Server requirements will be still required to play because it is part of the game.
As for the Xbox title all the details are so far out in the future at this point in time that we haven't even talked to Microsoft about the Xbox live requirements yet.
This game has always been thought of as an Online game and even before you purchase the game its clearly marked "Network: Active internet connection during installation and during game play!" under system requirements.
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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Drakon, most consumers don't understand the technical aspects of how games work. While it might make sense from the perspective of the development team to lessen the load on the consumers' hardware by having your servers perform the calculations, the great majority will not accept that as a viable reason to have the single-player component rely on being connected to your servers. Single-player games have been playable without requireing a constant internet connection for decades, definitely since before I was born, and when Ubisoft decided that they would require players to be constantly connected to their servers to play Assassin's Creed II, players were OUTRAGED. Consumers, espeacially consumers of eletronics, are emotional and easily made upset. In the current state of gaming, having a single-player game that requires a constant internet connection will carry the same connotations as Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed II. It's human nature to relate the new to the old. Eventually, this practice will likely be the norm and consumers will adapt to it, but until then most games that incorporate this will likely be martyrs.
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28 months ago by
TiberiuS
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Most people are connected to the internet when they just turn on their computer. So why bother about it?
Other companies do this for years and they're very successful with it. E.g. Valve and the Steam-platform. And don't tell me that you usually play HL2/EP1/Ep2 in offline-mode! ;)
Edit:
Valve did a good job in selling this "copy protection" Steam. They said: 'Hey, we have this cool online platform that gives you updates, addons, there's a shop and other cool stuff. You can download the games you registered on steam everywhere. And hey, when you are online even when playing singleplayer games there are cool achievements and your friends can see how good you are....'
While Ubisoft was like: 'You'll have to be online to play; even in singleplayer. This is our copy protection and we'll not change this. So stop complaining and stfu.'
see the difference?! ^^
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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I don't play games through steam. My cousin loaned my copy of The Orange Box for the Xbox 360 to one of his friends and I just got it back, so yeah, my 360 is always connected to the internet. My laptop is not always connected to the internet. It's the times when I don't have internet connection that I'm wanting to play single player games.
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28 months ago by
SatanicKill
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Bleh, pure online. No single player campaign?
Nevermind..
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28 months ago by
Drakon
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It has a Single Player Campaign but the game is still strictly Online.
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28 months ago by
CityBuilder
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QUOTE: MarekRosa wrote:
Protection is same as Minecraft`s just get your account and you can play. You cannot even install the game without internet anyway. But hey thx for the comment!
As far as I'm aware, I do not need to be connected to the Minecraft server the entire time that I play, I need only login to the server once during each play session, AND if my login fails (server down, my internet down etc) then I play Offline as long as I've sucessfully logged into the Minecraft servers at least one time in the past.
So, I'm not so sure that the protection in MW2081 is the same as in Minecraft.
As far as releasing the source code to the servers if the company goes out of business, well UbiSoft showed us that you don't need to go out of business to drop an online server, they've done it to a couple of their games when they are no longer selling the game and don't want to pay to keep maintaining the servers.
Unless the powers that be are willing to release the server software (different from the 'source code' I think, so that players can play on their own LAN, then we remain at the will of the company to do as they please when MW2081 is no longer selling well and the maintenance overshadows the profits of the game.
But since that seems like a far off event, so far off that I'd likely not even be interested in MW2081 anymore, I'm not going to be bothered about that. It is just something to think about for those that are concerned about such things in my opinion.
In my opinion... Comparing your online games need to be constantly connected with the way that Minecraft does it was a huge fail. And likely something to come back and haunt you in the end!
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28 months ago by
Madfish
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You gotta remember that MW2081 does not exist as a single player game. At first they tried to avoid the "copy protection" branding, then it was "server side calculations", at some point it was DRM again.
Fact is that MW2081 is just a sandbox for the MMO development. In other words their company is probably too small to really be able to develop a single player game with multiplayer components AND an MMO at the same time or without using the same code (engine, netcode etc.). The approach is just identical thus this game essentially is an MMO with isolated worlds for each player.
So yeah, like I said above: I can understand both sides (although I would like Keen Software to be a bit more honest and direct to avoid conflicts with customers) but at 9$ or something it's ok value.
I wouldn't ever pay 40$ for a game with this type of copy protection however. And that's something KSH probably realizes as well. They will run into trouble selling the single player version with this sort of server technology and thus I think it's seriously just a sandbox for the MMO.
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28 months ago by
Hakudo
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It is about damn time, that a crack will show up! I have enough of this DRM bullshit. I can't get here a broadband connection. So i have constat to pay to be online. It's the same fuck like Ubisoft's Assassins Creed. Minecraft can do it, so you can too.
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28 months ago by
windwakr
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Hakudo, Ubisoft has actually let up a little with AssCreed, and now an internet connection is needed only to start the game. So, MW is actually worse than that.
Glad I didn't pay for this piece of garbage.
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28 months ago by
Arcania
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After having read this.....
Ill abstain from buying the game, i read about it in gameplay and thought it would be a single player game with multiplayer options.
Which it is clearly not. (ill never buy a game which requires an active internet connection to play it imho).
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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It will have a single-player storyline along with multiplayer options.
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28 months ago by
Arcania
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If so why the unnecessary need to have an active Internet connection?, this has the word DRM all over it.
You know what happened to Assassins creed 2 and why its on discount in any story.
Edit:
to make sure i make myself clear:
MMO, subscription, manditory login -> No problem at all its a multiplayer game after all, the subscription is explainable by the maintenance the company does to make sure the servers keep maintained and upgraded and without the connection its not possible to interact with other players.
Single player with manditory login -> This is a problem, since i deem it unnecessary, for a simple reason,
A "cracked" pirated version of the same game without annoying logins give a better gaming experience. the active connection doesn't "add" anything.
For this reason i don't buy steam games nor games with notorious DRM, instead i simply download em becouse that gives a "better" gaming experiance.
Note: i can/have and will buy all games that i find good, its a matter if i want to support the company that made that game.
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28 months ago by
s20dan
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QUOTE: While I would still greatly appreciate the ability to play in single player and (non-massively) multiplayer without connecting to your servers, I've been unable to resist purchasing this game. I love the concept, and I love the open development (It reminds me of Mount & Blade).
I agree. The lack of ability to play in an offline mode is very disconcerting.
But the demo was good enough for me to ignore that fact and make a purchase. :)
You guys are better than Ubishaft, you don't need this or any form of DRM.
Remember this important fact: DRM creates Pirates, it doesn't stop them.
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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Arcania, if you read my posts then you will notice that I agree with you. All I was saying is that the game DOES have a single-player campaign. Why it's online only? Because they "need" the computing power of their servers to lessen the load on the player's computer or something. Just like uhh... umm... I don't know any other game that uses this.
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28 months ago by
TheProfileth
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Would be nice if the server backed up the save games either exclusively (like no save game on hardrive, could prevent cheating) or atleast optionally
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28 months ago by
Drakon
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Guys this is not being done to discourage piracy its just the way the game is built from the ground up. At this point in time making the single player offline is just not practical because of time restraints because it would require a full rewrite of the game.
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28 months ago by
TheProfileth
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Drakon don't worry we (the community) all believe in your judgement, and for those that don't, what kind of MMO has offline play? Better yet what kind of good MMO has offline play?
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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That's the thing, we are NOT talking about the MMO. Miner Wars is going to be released as two products. The single-player campaign that also has online servers similiar to Freelancer and Neverwinter Nights will release as a stand-alone game. Then, sometime in the future, AFTER the single-player campaign is released, the MMO will be released as another stand-alone product. It's two seperate games.
Drakon, I understand that it's not technilogically feasible at this point in time to rewrite the game to allow the single-player to be offline; however, I, like many other players, will find the reason it was decided to be online-only baffling since no other game that I'm aware of needed to rely on a server for single-player gameplay calculations. I teach chemistry to high school students, so that is where my expertise lies. I only have a rudimentary knowledge of computer hardware and software but I do know that I don't like having to rely on an internet connection and on the servers being up to play a game, since I stay at school afterwards to work on making lesson plans, lab guides, worksheets, tests, and quizzes and sometimes I want to play a game for a little bit after the kids go home. Can't do that with Miner Wars because the servers are blocked.
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28 months ago by
Arcania
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I can only agree with mrcalhou that i can't find any reason what so ever to lessen the PC-load trough my tiny ADSL internet line. Again i and so is mrcalhou are only talking about the single player features. As it stands now you'll have less problems explaining why a premanent internet connection is required if you would just scrap the single player features. and focus on pure MMO gameplay.
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28 months ago by
Madoka
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"Guys this is not being done to discourage piracy its just the way the game is built from the ground up. At this point in time making the single player offline is just not practical because of time restraints because it would require a full rewrite of the game."
Better idea than rewriting the game would be to create a locally runable server, it seems like a good idea on most fronts, first it reduces workload on the mmo servers, second it removes the issue that lots of people have (occasional flakey internet connections, mine seems to glitch out a few times a week only for a few minutes but still), third it protects players from failures on the mmo servers, fourth it allows for people who've bought the game to run their own persistant worlds to play with their friends without having to do the whole mmo thing(like me and mine do with minecraft. I've found most mmo experiance involves turning off all the chat channels to tune out the teenagers.)Online always is only slightly worse than always needing the disk in the drive.
As to copy protection, it'll be broken within a month if the game becomes popular, regardless. Most games companies that have gone under now have gone under due to the sub standard quality of the games they release (bugs, bugs, more bugs and, immensly unorigonal stories) good games will make a packet (just look at minecraft.)
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28 months ago by
mrcalhou
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Madoka, this is about the single-player aspect of the game. NOT the MMO. If we were talking about the MMO, it would be a far, far better idea to have as little work being done by the player's client as possible to hinder people from being able to cheat.
Guys, please stop reading this thread and thinking "MMO." As far as the ideas of this thread are concerned there is no such thing as a Miner Wars MMO.
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28 months ago by
Madoka
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I wasn't talking about the mmo I was talking about enabling the single player game, with a side line into multiplayer (not mmo, but multiplayer, from back in the good old days when you play with your friends.)
Requiring always online is a no brainer mmo functionality (hence the online part).
The reason the single player can't work off line is because it requires engine components from the mmo servers. So the obvious answer to cure the problem is to create a local version of the mmo server that polls the authentication servers at start and then polls for anyone joining the system. It's an elegant solution that doesn't require massive rewrites.
tbh I'm not too hung up on it, I'm used to games companies coming up with pita solutions fortunatly 99% of the time it doesn't bother me as 99% of games aren't worth playing.
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28 months ago by
Jasticus
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I'll try to break this down as best I can to explain what is meant when it says 'Single Player Story' and 'MMO'.
Miner Wars is being made to -be- an MMO. From the very beginning, the game was being built with an MMO architecture. As everyone knows, MMO's require an internet connection, because various things are constantly being updated server-side which then relay back to you, client-side.
This will inevitably bring the question, "Well why is it being advertised as a Single Player game?"
The answer to that is simply because there is a single player 'Campaign' that you can play by yourself. Anyone who has played an MMO or has even read about one is most likely familiar with the term 'instancing'. While not a wholly accurate way to describe what happens, it's the best way to offer an example. You can play and participate in the single player story campaign by yourself, but because of the MMO architecture, various algorithms and whatnot will always be run server-side.
The convenient thing about being 'online' at all times is that if you have trouble in any one spot of the campaign you can instantly invite someone into your game and play with them cooperatively. Not only that, but it will be much easier to see how many other people are online when you want to play one of the various other multiplayer modes.
Finally, the game remains connected so that it can update to the website. Various things on the web are going to be connected directly to the game.
Now you're probably wondering why we don't just make the entire thing an MMO right away, since there has to be constant connectivity. There are a few reasons, once again.
Firstly, we'd probably have to hire a lot more people - which just isn't possible right at this very moment. MMO's can't be small, they need to keep people entertained for a while. Any MMO you can 'beat' content-wise within a week just isn't satisfying. Therefore a 'scaled down' version of the MMO is being released - a main campaign that you can play to familiarize yourself with the ships, lore, mission styles, etc. You'll be able to play it alone if you wish, or with another person, as stated earlier.
Next, the game would obviously be delayed. We don't want to do that, and I don't think anyone else wants that either. As it stands now, the earliest any functional MMO would be released is late next year.
Lastly, since the game is using MMO architecture, we can use the time in between this first release and the eventual release of other editions and the MMO to optimize server code to make sure that everyone has the best experience possible.
Try to think of it as a pyramid. At the base, supporting everything else, is the main campaign and initial multiplayer modes, eventually adding on other campaigns and missions until you reach the MMO at the top. We have plans to constantly update this game.
About the comment to release a localhost server to run the game on - its a nice idea in theory, but then that's close enough to telling pirates, "Hey, here's my source code, run some private servers for me, okay?" Because of all this discussion we've been talking amongst each other to determine the amount of work it would take to create an offline mode for the main campaign. It is possible - the problem is that it would take more work than we have the time or manpower to do. Any offline mode wouldn't be released until around the time of the MMO, if even before it, because we'd essentially have to rip out the bottom layer of that pyramid, rebuild it, and make a new smaller pyramid with only the single player components stacked on top. That means removing and disabling all references to co-op, web updates, and the like.
In summary: (Otherwise known as TL;DR)
- The entire game is being built with an MMO Architecture.
- Single Player Story means you can play the main campaign by yourself, if you wish.
- The game can be built again with an offline architecture, but it likely wouldn't happen until much later, potentially the same time as or after the MMO release.
On a more personal note, I have a feeling that most people are like myself and don't really care if online connectivity is required or not, as long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay. If it does, then complaints would be legitimate - like all the finger pointing at Ubisoft. That's part of the reason why the game has been released in such an early stage, it gives us a good opportunity to iron out any kinks in the system. There will probably be rough spots, like there are with virtually every game out there. But you can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs, so the end result should definitely be worth it.
P.S. Don't forget that there is a demo that gets updated along with the main game, so even if you're sitting on the wall/fence about purchasing you can still follow progress in-game to a certain extent.
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28 months ago by
Madoka
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"About the comment to release a localhost server to run the game on - its a nice idea in theory, but then that's close enough to telling pirates, "Hey, here's my source code, run some private servers for me, okay?" "
This seems to show that you've bought into the pirate hype, which is a shame, as it means you're more scared of the "pirate menace" than you are trusting of your community, and that's a pretty bad sign looking forward.
Eve, Runescape and, Ragnarok all had their source stolen and they are hardly hurting for cash and players (they also only maintained a server based ideology), and those games have no single player content. Minecraft also has local play servers that authenticate to central servers though it would be trivial to remove the authentication yet the games still made a mint.
Also a reasonable number admit that piracy has been good for their games as it has exposed the game to more people, even though the pirate to buyer ratio is still low, the pirates tell friends and then friends tell more freinds.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/21/the_plusses_of_pirates/
But it's your choice to not have faith in players. We want to buy games that we can enjoy the way we like, online, offline, with other people, alone and, with small groups of friends.
I'll continue to hope the game turns out well and that the money I've spent has been well spent. Even though I question the current methodology.
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28 months ago by
Drakon
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I believe he was talking about pirating the source code and finding work around in game security not pirates of the game.
A local server would be a quick alternative but in the long run it would be far easier for "hackers" to create aim bots and other sort of cheats because they can poke at the local server to see how it works. In the long run its not a very sound idea and would greatly hurt multi-player play.
Trust has nothing to do with the current way the game is setup, I have stated in the past that the game was built utilizing the game server so taking out of the equation would be very hard. We do not have the time to do this right now. We will revisit this after the release but at current time the current login system is staying.
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26 months ago by
ZzZGuy
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Required internet access for a single player game, let alone constant internet connection, leaves a bad taste in my mouth no matter how you describe it or explain it.
HOWEVER!!! This would not apply to Miner Wars "IF" the non MMO installment will be a multiplayer/co-op game first and a single player game second. I can not stress this enough.
I raged when I read this thread but then "Co-op" popped into my head and "DING". To explain, I ****ing love co-op.
A good example is Two Worlds II. A mediocre RPG with online activation and install limits that I should have black listed but instead bought. I bought it because my friend played it and wanted me to play the co-op campaign with him. Death matches and non persistent miltiplayer content just don't cut it, there has to be meat on the bones to sink your teeth into with a friend.
Another thing that Two Words II had going for it was the "Village Mode" which, right up until I found out how bad the co-op campaign ending was, I would have payed money for extra content to expand upon this idea. This mode consisted of a village you owned where you built structures with different functions (eg, farm, black smith, guard tower) that allowed you to make a town and meet the needs of the NPCs in it. You got taxes from your peasants and could have them produce items for you (but only a limited selection at a time). You could invite other players to visit your town and buy your goods (which gave you extra credits). A mode like this, but good, added along with a fully co-op campaign would go a long way to dispelling the hurt feeling some have over the required internet connection by being able to say "but why would you want to play offline by yourself?".
In summery, imho, the multiplayer/co-op content needs to be there (I'm not a dev working on the game so I don't where this game will go in the end until it's finally released) and a GREAT deal of stress needs to be put on online content that would require a online connection anyway. It already sounds like you're headed in this direction so I'm hopeful I won't be disappointed. (also, already bought the pre-order)
(Read through the site and did some searching, sorry if anything I said here has already been addressed)
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25 months ago by
MarekRosa
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ZzZGuy, yeah, that's exactly how we see it and the main reason for using our client-server architecture.
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21 months ago by
Crill
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I kno its probably late to post......
But a fully offline mode isn't a bad idea and it would be generally easy in theory. Offline mode could be given out with basic tools and one small set of maps a to mess about on and leave the rest of the cool gadgets to online play I use a laptop and im out at college ALOT so it means i can't get on as often as i would want, just something small for people to mess around with would be great and keep everyone happy.
Even an actual campaign seperate from the MMO that you buy, I have seen many games that have done this.
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19 months ago by
ostermei
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Yes, I know I'm posting in an old thread, but I really just have to mention that I'm super-interested in this game, I started downloading the demo client, I registered an account, I started reading more while waiting for the download and came across the filthy lies of "no DRM" but "must be online constantly for single-player."
Chalk up one more lost sale. I will not buy Ubisoft games that do this. I will not buy Diablo 3 which does this. I will not buy your game.
I cannot stress enough that the only reason I'm not giving you my money is because of the DRM.
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19 months ago by
Goodknight
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I think this is silly..
I get it it's not DRM but you really need to change this!
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18 months ago by
Enough
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Not buying until fixed. When I buy games I do so because of longevity. It doesn't matter why the creator chose to make the game server based (though it's completely illogical anyway) - the fact is that many players MIND that it's this way. I was literally about to buy the game when I stumbled upon this topic.
As a side note, the demo is boring and BASED ON THE DEMO I feel that the game isn't worth $5, let alone the full $20. Therefore the creator should expand the demo to show how the game is worth the money instead of acting like a money grubbing corporation.
Look at two other games with relatively similar pricing models:
Live for Speed
-Demo includes 2 cars, 2 tracks, 2 game modes and MULTIPLAYER. I bought this game after my first race in it simply because of how well the multiplayer works. Sure, there are a lot of people who play only the demo, but this doesn't mean the game lost sales because of it.
Minecraft
-EXACTLY THE SAME PRICING MODEL.
-"Demo" creative mode (sandbox, at least, if not multiplayer demo pls) for free
-transparent business practices (put "DRN" on the home page please)
This "company" needs to learn from its predecessors and direct competition instead of mimicking giant corporations that are creating console games and fabricating lies as to why they lose sales on the PC.
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18 months ago by
Powell
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Your seriously bashing a Pre-Alpha game for not having enough content?? HA It really is silly to be comparing this game to "Live for speed" "Minecraft" or any other game. What do you think a Pre-Alpha game is?
to only pay 20 bucks for a $40-60 game is a good deal. If your upset it's not a full game don't take it out on the developers who have come a tremendously long way since it's launch of this site starting from nothing. Should be happy there is a new company doing so well and staying active in the forums keeping people updated regularly.
Yah it probably would be nice to have an offline singleplayer for those with bad internet connections but honestly why should anyone even care about that at such an early stage of game development?
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17 months ago by
donsavage
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as far as the piracy goes... if it keeps them from playing then go with it. i paid my 20$ and they can fork the money over or find another game. as far as the internet goes... well i'll play minecraft when i have bad internet lol this is more of a multiplayer game im happy as long as hackers arnt on the rankings (if rankings are made)
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17 months ago by
wouw
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i bought this game for 10 EUR, i think,but watever, DRM isn't the nicest thing, but i don't really have problems with it. learn live with it,DRM is the future and if it's done right(valve,steam)it's no problem, if its done bad(ubisoft,u-play),that's a other story
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17 months ago by
Frrz
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People need to think of this like Guild Wars. You have to login and stay connected to their servers to play the game. Yet your able to play by yourself or with a party.
I haven't bought this game yet, and I'm not sure if I'm going to, there's a multitude of things that have me on edge (which I won't discuss here), however the biggest thing would be the multiple versions of the game. The (online) single-player, and the MMO. I believe that because there are two versions, this whole 'online to play single-player' issue has risen. If the game was developed for online use only, this connection issue wouldn't be a problem, and it makes me wonder why there are two versions in the first place.
Haay1971 said
QUOTE:
Because of a nice and engaging story line with scripted events.
Well, I don't believe that could possibly be an issue. Guild Wars as an example, each game has a great story that goes along with it, and it's considered a MMO. Sure Guild Wars consists of persistent outposts and instance areas, and the aim for Miner Wars is to be open world, but if we look at Guild Wars 2, from what I've read, will be open world yet still have an enriching storyline. If Anet is able to come up with a way to pull that off, then I'm sure the guys at Keen can do the same.
Why do I keep going back to Guild Wars? Well I really like the production (I guess that's the right word?) model. Were you get updates for free, no monthly subscriptions, and only have to pay for new campaigns (which are each very large and considered independent games), though recently there has been the addition of a 'cash shop' were players can buy consumes. Doesn't bother me at all because they are only for looks and do not give players any sort of benefit.
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Sorry if some of this is off-topic, but from what I've read, this thread was off-topic from the beginning.
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LOCKED
7/11/2012 2:35:50 PM,
Old PRE-ALPHA topic
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